Hints and Tips - Brush Painting

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999
To: British-Cars-Pre-War
From: Dennis E Nelson
Subject: Brushable Paint

A few days ago, there was a thread started concerning brushable paint. I did not see the original messages, and I certainly do not want to bring up old topics unnecessarily, but what was the question? I have brush painted a couple of old cars, but that was in my younger days when I had no money for spraying. I remember that it was pretty awful, so I am wondering now what you folks are thinking of doing? Terry, did you say you were going to try it? This is very interesting as it could save a lot of money, potentially, but I fear for the final result.

Second topic. Has anyone heard of water based automobile paint. A guy at work says that he has seen it advertised, but I haven't. Any info. Thanks a lot.

Dennis Nelson
39 MG TA


From: TA TERRY
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999
Subject: Re: Brushable Paint
To: Dennis Nelson

Dennis, I asked the original question and that was is the stuff still made and where to get it if it is.....Apparently the is a marine paint that fits the bill and there is an industrial paint in the UK that is "brushable"....I'm sure that both would require a certain amount of rub out after application.

We have waterbased auto paint out here in california...I have not seen it used yet...

Hows the TA coming....

Terry


To: Dennis Nelson
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999
Subject: Re: Brushable Paint
From: Jack Hardy

Dennis,

I also fear the result, I plan to get some of this one part polyurethane paint from a marine supplier and try both brushing and spraying on seperate metal samples and judge then. I once painted an MGB with Rustoleum spray cans. boy was that tedious. of course it had to be color sanded and rubbed out but I am still pleased with the result.(Maybe I'm easy to please).

Jack


From: Mark McCombs
To: Jack Hardy, Dennis Nelson
Subject: Re: Brushable Paint
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999

Not to say I know anything other than experience, but I was very surprised at how nice a "Home done" paint job can look if you wet sand (and wet sand!) with 1000 grit, then polishing compound. Just try to get an even coating when applying. I would use a very expensive brush for this purpose; perhaps foam brushes also for no brush marks (less to wet sand). wet sand down to an even, matt finish, then start polishing.

Good luck,

Mark


From: Andrew Burley
To:
Subject: Re: Brushable Paint
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999

This is my first posting direct to the list so I hope I have done it right! [THIS IS NOW MY SECOND ATTEMPT BECAUSE I GOT IT WRONG FIRST TIME!]To find out about me (if you care/dare!) check out http://www.bigwig.net/earthdweller where you can find out all about my unique 1930 Standard Big Nine Fabric Saloon - I know you've never heard of one! Check out The Big Nine Pages on the site for model history, etc. (The Big Nine Swallow was the forerunner of the SS1, and the rest is history...as are Standard, sadly, although I understand that there is now a motor scooter on sale in the UK which is being produced by the "Standard Motor Company", presumably the Indian assembly plant which carried on making vans). My lair is in "God's own country" - Yorkshire, England - and nowhere near Luton Hoo :-) (I always thought it was LuTTon Hoo, but I checked my map!)

This thread is getting a bit messy now, and some of it appears to be going offline so if I am repeating anybody, sorry.

As far as I know it is still possible to buy a variety of brushable paints here in the UK for use on vehicles. I bought Holts black brushing paint in Halfords two years ago, and I think they still sell the Cannon Repaint brushing paint, although it may have changed its name - it may be part of the same groups as Hammerite, Plastikote or Car Plan, so it might be worth checking with suppliers of those products in the US of A.

The idea of Repaint was that anyone could repaint their car in a weekend and the manufacturers used to recommend a particular quality of brush to achieve a good standard of finish. You just degreased and painted! They had quite a good range of generic colours including reds, blues, black, white and a good approximation for BRG. I'm not sure whether it is cellulose or acrylic - it may be acrylic as it was designed to be used over existing paintwork. I have seen some bad repaints using this product but I have also seen some very good ones - applied neatly it self-levels very well. The product has been around since the mid 1980s or earlier.

The key thing about a paint particularly designed for cars is that they are designed to self-level on very curved panels, whereas a lot of industrial paints or paints for buses/wagons are designed for quick application on flat or mildly curving panels. I have used water-based industrial brushing paints for other purposes and the instructions include an ideal thickness in microns for each layer as applied - I've no idea how you are meant to measure this as you are applying it off a brush - it's difficult enough with a spray. It is easy to experiment on flat panels but I'm not sure what speed you would move your brush in order to maintain that thickness around curved areas and edges like petrol tanks or door pillars. A lot of paints wont be drawn back on to a brush if you put too much on.

I once used an enamel yacht paint on a 4x4 vehicle with some success, although the self-levelling properties were not ideal for anything with a lot of curvature and I did get some runs in awkward areas. I used a canary yellow over a light grey primer and did get some show through with the recommended one coat, and keying for the a second coat was difficult because of the hard shell surface. The result was very impact resistant though. It would be worth investigating the enamel option, if you can find one which applies in one thick coat, as I understand enamel is more widely used in houses in the US.

One thing to bear in mind with marine paints is their multi-purpose nature. Some have algae resistant/anti-fouling characteristics and sacrificial components so the surface breaks down over time. Some also have a short shelf life, so don't buy a bargain for your boat without checking. Others are very flexible to allow for the stresses in a hull as it hits the waves, but as a consequence polishing the paint dulls it - not very desirable on a classic car!

I have used water-based paints designed for outdoor use, and no doubt Californian contributors might be able to track down versions designed speci fically for cars, although the "licensed spray shops" policy may even apply to those products. Here in the UK we have water-based gloss and emulsion paints, and generally the solvent content of paints is reducing. At the same time we still seem to be able to buy xylene-based paints over the counter, which I find astonishing - I stopped using them years ago. Water based outdoor gloss paints have a similar life to solvent based, ie. about 6 years of Yorkshire rain, wind and occasional hot sun, so no doubt car versions would be effective. One thing to watch with water based paints is allergies - my sister had to have antihistamines and an adrenaline shot when she reacted to one of the different components (an aldehyde, I think) which is used to make water do the same job as spirits. Cellulose is at least predictable!

Best wishes to all. Enjoying the banter, and glad to be on board.

Regards

Andrew Burley, Summer Wine Country, England
Personal website and The Big Nine Pages - http://www.bigwig.net/earthdweller
Community site MELTHAM ON THE WEB -
http://www.bigwig.net/earthdweller/meltham


Date: Tue, 11 May 1999
To: Jack Hardy
From: Dennis E Nelson
Subject: Re: Brushable Paint

Wow, painting a car with Rustoleum?! How did it look? Would it have the depth of color you would want? I think it would stand up to the weather fairly well, but how about chips, etc? Does it have the lasting ability of a good enamal or one of the newer auto paints? How come you never hear of anyone using Rustoleum? Shame, perhaps? It sure would be cheap! I have sprayed outdoor furniture with it, perhaps it would be O.K.!

Dennis Nelson

And, by the way, What does it mean when the flag is flying half-mast at the Post Office? They're hiring!


Date: Tue, 11 May 1999
To: TA TERRY
From: Dennis E Nelson
Subject: Re: Brushable Paint

Hi, Terry,

I might as well give a restoration update to the whole group while I'm at it, so here is the current TA status. It is sitting on jack stands in my shed, completely (sans fuel pump, regulator, misc. attachments) mechanically done! I have not fired it up, as I'm going to wait till I get some body on it, but it is really coming great. All new brakes, brake lines, etc. Engine all painted, as is all of the running gear. Springs individually disassembled, sandblasted, painted. (One of the best things I ever did was to buy a large compressor and build a big sandblasting cabinet.)

Unfortunately, my wife and my house consume a great deal of time, as does devil work, so I don't work on it as much as I would like. My daughters are very demanding in wanting new furniture for their houses and anyone who has done woodworking can say, that is time consuming! So, this last winter was a total loss, but all of the body panels have had the paint removed and I am in the process of readying them for paint. That is one of the reasons for my questions. So, that is the status at present. If I had a scanner I would post a couple of pictures, but you all know what they look like, so.....

That's it for now. Cheers

Dennis Nelson


To: British-Cars-Pre-War
From: Nigel Coulter
Subject: Brushing Paint
Date: Mon, 17 May 99

I have successfully used synthetic coach enamel as supplied by VPS, Vehicle Paint Services, 52-54 London Road, Bagshot 01276 472118

They also do a pretty fair job of matching the colour to your sample - I recently had them make up some Humber Mole that matched the paint on my car which was much greener than the Mole supplied by the Humber Registrer. It was worth doing as I am assured it is probably the original colour. (No two Humbers in Mole are the same colour!).

Regards
Nigel Coulter
Hindhead


From: David Cochrane
To: Nigel Coulter
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999
Subject: Re: Brushing Paint

Nigel,

> I have successfully used synthetic coach enamel as supplied by
> VPS, Vehicle Paint Services, 52-54 London Road, Bagshot 01276 472118

Glad to know they are still going - I still have some of their paint I bought for the Chummy >20 years ago! Their black was a really deep rich BLACK - you could see the difference against cellulose black.

Regards, David.


From: Dennis Nelson
To: british-cars-pre-war
Subject: Painting
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 07:23:27 PDT

Just a quick question. What is the estimated amount of paint required to fully paint a TA/TC? I am a rank amateur but I am going to do it myself! Thanks in advance.

Dennis Nelson '39 MG TA


From: Maggie Shapland
To: Dennis Nelson
Subject: Re: Painting
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999

A little goes a long way- depends how many coats you end up doing. I took about 4 coats undercoat, and 3 coats top coat when I did the Talbot- about the same area as a TA and still had lots of paint left from standard 1 litre tins

----------------------
Maggie Shapland, Computing Service, University of Bristol
Web page: http://www.cse.bris.ac.uk/~ccmjs/


From: Dennis Nelson
To: Maggie Shapland, Dennis Nelson
Subject: Re: Painting
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999

Thanks for the info, but you say from standard 1 liter cans . How many 1liter cans? thanks again.

Dennis Nelson


To: Dennis Nelson
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999
Subject: Re: Painting
From: Jack Hardy

Dennis,

Good question, I have bought 1 qt of epoxy barrier coat and will see how far that goes and then estimate for the whole car. I found a web page for boats that you give the length, width and location of mooring and an automated program gives a recommendation for paint and the amounts, including the thinner! Too bad someone hasn't done that for our cars.

regards,

Jack


Date: Mon, 24 May 1999
From: Bob Zwart
To: Jack Hardy
cc: Dennis Nelson
Subject: Re: Painting

The reason you can't find the amount of paint for a MG is that the location of mooring has not been established. It is important to know the size of the brush and the amount of solids in the paint; then the number of drips per dip in the pail. Sounds poetic! Of course there are still some of us who want a spray paint job................ Then its the size of the gun, how much overspray and the number of beers consumed in the course of job....

Bob


From: Maggie Shapland
To: Dennis Nelson
Subject: Re: Painting
Date: Tue, 25 May 1999

1 litre of red oxide, 1 litre of undercoat, 1 litre of top coat. Sorry my grammar was misleading. I looked at the tins last night but there was no indication of coverage on any of them. Tekaloid do a more detailed book on their paints which I ought to send away for

Maggie Shapland, Computing Service, University of Bristol
Web page: http://www.cse.bris.ac.uk/~ccmjs/


Date: Tue, 25 May 1999
To: Maggie Shapland
From: Dennis E Nelson
Subject: Re: Painting

Thanks, Maggie. I think that was about the amount I was planning on. At least I 'm hoping it will do, as paint is EXPENSIVE! $80 a quart for PPG, plain old black! (That's one quart of paint, one quart of reducer and the hardener) And BTW, the hardener is hazardous stuff. I have been told that you really do not need it. Anyone got an opinion here? (Stupid question!)

Dennis Nelson


From: Guy Weatherall
To: Dennis E Nelson
Subject: Re: Painting
Date: Tue, 25 May 1999

Dennis,

Is the PPG paint a coach enamel? I know Tekaloid their coach enamel, an oil-based air-drying paint. A paint that needs hardner sounds more like a two-pack. Two-pack needs all sort of precautions such as a separate air-fed face mask as the hardner is a carcinogen so isn't really suitable for home use. Two pack is very expensive but covers very well so you don't need much.

Guy Wetherall
28 Austin 7
72 MG Midget


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